Ken Ault
Ken Ault
Interview November 2012
Ken Auld with input from brother Jan Auld
KA001
Ken: So, a little introduction. So, I’m here talking to Ken Auld on the twenty eighth of November
KA: Yep. That’s what it is.
Ken: And you’re gonna tell me a little bit about your cedar business you started in 1946.
KA: Yeah
Ken: That’s one of the old one’s that’s still around
KA: Yeah. I wasn’t born then
Ken: Right
KA: , but my dad started it in ’46 and me and my brother, he passed away in ’88, and we took over after that. It wasn’t, it wasn’t near as prosperous, not only was it before the big boom, you know, of the ‘90s, but it was, uh, my dad wasn’t, uh, my dad, he had a little bit of a drinking problem and he wasn’t really well. Uh, as long as he had enough to feed his family and get by, that’s all
Ken: Uh-huh, uh-huh
KA: He was into, but, me and my brother were, were a little bit more ambitious
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: And, neither one of us drank. So
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: So that’s why, I think we did a lot better. And We were still in the business because of that. As long as there’s cedar we will be, as long as we’d hold out. I’m in my mid fifties now , so
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: We’ll probably , well, might not be a whole lot longer, but, fifteen, twenty years maybe.
Ken: Is your dad the only yard at the time?
KA: At the time that we took over, yes. But, now, when he was younger, no.
Ken: Tell me how many yards were there back then?
KA: Well, let’s see. Of course I don’t know that they were all going at the same time,
Ken: right
KA: but I can tell you there was Boatright, the one we been talking about, right across from - . His was, they sold firewood now, it’s right across from the Stripes
Ken: Oh really
KA: Right across from the Stripes, there’s that Beverage Barn and the restaurant. One notch north of that would be where Boatright had his cedar yard. And then, I guess , I can’t remember what his first name was, and I can’t remember it, his wife is Odell Boatright. And I can’t remember what his, Floyd
Ken: Are there any Boatrights left in, uh
KA: Leakey?
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: Yes, there are. As a matter of fact, my driver’s wife is, is Floyd and Odell’s daughter. Uh, her name, uh, Veda. Is Veda Goines now. It was Veda Boatright.
Ken: All right
KA: That’s one, and, uh, Leon Boatright is still here. Uh,
Ken: Did he cut cedar?
KA: He, he is older and his health is not real, real good now, he’s had a heart transplant and stuff, but he did when he was younger, yes.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: Yes. Um, OK, there’s, let me think, there was one right there where that Exxon is, right on the very top of that hill and I was trying to think of the name of the guy that had it. That was supposed to be a real big yard back then. That was when most of the Leakey, half of the Leakey residents, uh, hauled to him. I wish my driver hadn’t of left. He probably didn’t go far. He could tell you. He’s older than I am. He’s in his seventies. And he remembers, you know, back when he was, back
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: back when he was real young
Ken: Yeah
KA: And he remembers all those names a lot better than I dome. My brother too. He’ll be along in a minute. But it’s those two, uh, Ed Thom
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: He passed away in, uh, I think in the ‘90s. And he’s, uh, in the middle of town at the first flashing light take a right, and go out about a mile on your left to that cedar yard right there. Uh,
Ken: That’s four yards right there
KA: Yeah. Let me think. If I’ve got, if I can remember where all of ‘em. Oh, there’s a real small one not far from where Floyd had his. Uh, he was a Rohan, was his last name, uh, Barney Rohan. Lowland, act, I think. Barney was a nickname. Lowlan Rohan, of course he’s passed away too, but, he had a real small yard just what him and one hand could cut and put it out. These other yards bought from the public.
Ken: brought ‘em in.
KA: Right
Ken: How many, so, back when your dad had his yard, I guess you’d be mostly familiar with that of any of ‘em, how many, uh, folks would bring in a load a day?
KA: back when my dad did it? Oh, gosh. There were several. I would say probably, probably, say five to eight,
Ken: Um-hum
KA: a day. Now, five to eight a week.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: So, we’d do the rest. There’s not, it’s not, it’s getting less and less. Of course with this bad economy, we’ve noticed a pick-up
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: It’s about doubled in, in, what do they call it, independents, what we call independents
Ken: Right. Right.
KA: But, it, nowhere near does it, does the town depend on it like they used to.
Ken: Right. Right. Did you dad contract with the ranchers?
KA: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Ken: do it that way?
KA: Yeah. He’d use, (laugh), what do you call ‘em – foreign exchange students – to, to chop, for him. Actually back then everybody used illegals, and that’s what they were.
Ken: There weren’t too many people cutting?
KA: When my daddy was younger, yes. There was quite a few, but, really, all the time I remember, they were these hands from Mexico.
Ken: Right.
KA: You know. That’s what me and my brother used.
Ken: Yeah. That really probably picked up in the 1970s.
KA: Right
Ken: Yeah. I’m real familiar with all that
KA: Me being born in ’58. See that was just about the time I was mature
Ken: Yes, right
KA: But, uh
Ken: I’m kind-of, that’s probably kind-of the, the, almost the end of the period that I’m most interested in. I’m, I call that the heyday of the cedar chopper.
KA: Uh-huh
Ken: You know, kind-of
KA: You’re interested
Ken: 1940s, all the way through the 1950s, you know, and
KA: I know what, I know who that was, had that cedar yard right there on the, right there where Wills is now. That was Henderson. O. C. Henderson, wasn’t it.
Ken: O.C. Henderson. That is a name.
JA: Yes, it was. They had one in Camp wood. They had one there
Ken: Yeah
KA: Can you name the ones that had cedar yards right here through the years?
JA: Can I name them?
KA: Yes
JA: I might miss somebody, but, well, Floyd Boatright had one, Ed Thom,
KA: Yeah
Ken: ___. Boatright. Is this your driver you were talking about?
KA: No, that’s my brother.
Ken: Oh, OK!
JA: Hi
Ken: I’m Ken Roberts.
JA: Jan Auld
Ken: Nice to meet you, Jan. I’m the guy that’s kind-of doing a history of the cedar business in the Hill Country.
KA: Where’d ___ go? He could tell us a lot more about that old stuff because he was at least twenty years older than we are.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: So
Ken: Yeah, you know, this is not going to be my last trip here. So,
KA: Um-hum
Ken: Once the cedar, you’re the first guy I, well, I do know Doug , you know Myers cedar yard there in Lampasas. That’s pretty close to me, so I do know Doug Lavender. He’s, he’s been in business for a while, but, uh, how’s it work now? Each guy still contract with, with a rancher?
KA: Yeah
Ken: And do it that way?
KA: If you can find a good place,
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: We’ll jump all over it.
Ken: You’d look at the cedar and say, do they usually want to clear cut it, or do you all just take out the posts?
KA: We just do what the rancher wants. Whether he wants it clear cut, or whether he wants money or whatever he wants
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: As long as we can, can make a deal, as long as it’s profitable, for us, we’ll make a deal
Ken: So, let’s say I had a shaggy old bunch of ranch land that had a, a few good posts, but I really want it for grazing. That’s gonna cost me some money, isn’t it?
KA: Probablay. If it, you know, if it’s all old growth, and good, it probably isn’t
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: But if it’s, if it’s less – I’ll have to look at it
Ken: Yeah
KA: And I could tell you about what I could do.
Ken: Do you ever come across any good old growth brakes any more? Are there still some out there?
KA: Yeah, there’s still some. I know where some are now, They’re, it’s just like they’ve always been, they’ve always been a little hard to get a hold of.
Ken: Yeah
KA: Usually, that’s why they’re there to start with, you know. But, yeah.
Ken: Because people don’t want em cut?
KA: Because they want it cut right
Ken: Uh-huh. I saw one, I mean, are you talking, trees twenty foot tall?
KA: Yeah, but the height is not really that important.
Ken: No?
JA: Not for the stake
Ken: Yeah
JA: No, when I have stuff like that out on the Edwards Plateau that way out west, you know, it comes out of the ground, it looks like that.
Ken: Yeah
JA: It’s just brush and that’s all it’s ever gonna be. No matter how big it gets.
Ken: Right. That’s not gonna be any good for posts, is it. You could cut stays from it, I guess, but that, was that even worth it?
KA: usually in this country, I think it’s pretty much true of any country all the Hill Country, if you look at the sides of these hills, and go on the North side, you’ll nearly always find the best cedar.
Ken: Oh.
KA: Grows better on the north end.
JA: Down in the valleys on the north side
Ken: Uh-huh, uh-huh Ok. So, if you get a straight, you cut it into several posts, a big long, twenty, thirty foot
KA: Um-hum. That works and you also find stuff that didn’t grow over where the main trunk of the post went, would be over seven, eight foot tall.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: Now, those are good cedar too.
Ken: I just saw a truck coming in from Camp Wood and there was a man driving this flatbed and he had cut some thick cedar, but he was taking it to the mill. Why would he cut it short?
KA: They grind it up over here
JA: Probably goes to the sawmill, then they take the oil out of the sawdust to make soaps and perfumes and
Ken: Yes
KA: There’s two reasons why they cut it like that. First of all, it might not of ever made any more than that anyway.
Ken: So it might have been just a short piece
KA: And the second thing is, a lot of ‘em now a days, take, there’s a, there’s an amount of skill it takes to cut posts. It’s just like any other job. You’ve got to know a little bit about what you’re doing
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: And a lot of people do not. So they’ll just chop it up into wood and haul it to the mill because that doesn’t require any skill.
Ken: OK
KA: Just chop it u p and they get paid by weight.
Ken: OK. And they gotta get paid a whole lot less than you would
KA: Oh, yeah. They do. They do, but them not knowing how to cut it. And it requires a little more labor too. See if you go out and cut a little post, but first you’ve got to come back here and grade it off.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: And we will pay you for it. Over there, you pull up. They take a tractor and push it off and pay you for the weight and then you’re done.
Ken: Does it matter that they can sell little bitty stuff, or
KA: Over there it does. Here it doesn’t. They won’t buy it over there.
Ken: They won’t buy it because they’re looking for that heart wood, is that right?
KA: Right.
Ken: This is good, heart wood cedar. I’m going – you mean they’re gonna grind that stuff up, that, what a shame!
KA: ‘cause that’s where the oil is. And if it’s not, there’s no oil in the sap part.
Ken: I’ve got ya. What do you figure they get for a load of
KA: On a one ton?
Ken: It’s a one ton, or, yeah, one ton, one and a half.
KA: They probably average about one hundred fifty dollars. They’re getting ‘em roughly about fifty dollars a ton, and about three tons.
Ken: Uh-huh.
JA: ____
KA: A hundred fifty, two hundred
Ken: Uh-huh.
KA: I don’t know if the come across that hill, though Jan with that
JA: naw, but they’re cutting ___
KA: Alright
Ken: Because this one here was coming across
KA: Across the hill
Ken: Across 337, yeah
KA: Three to four tons, he figured.
Ken: Uh-huh. Hum.
KA: So a big old rounded load like that, hundred fifty, two hundred bucks is not that much here, it would pay probably three or four times that.
Ken: Yeah, yeah. OK. Plus the gas Camp Wood has got to be pretty substantial, over that hill.
KA: Um-hum
KA: And a lot of times these guys, if they’re cutting posts in a place like that, they’ll agree with the rancher to clear the wood off there, when they’re not making anything off it, just so they can get the posts.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: It helps the rancher and
Ken: Right. What’s the biggest percentage you would pay a rancher if he had virgin cedar?
KA: And I didn’t do any labor? Just took what I wanted?
Ken: Yeah
KA: Twenty percent.
Ken: OK
KA: Of the price -- of the choppers price that I would furnish
Ken: Right. Here and way back then, ten would be pretty typical?
KA: Yeah. Back then. But it’s now days everything’s higher, you know
Ken: Yeah
KA: Just like everything else. We’re able to go up with it.
Ken: So, where did you, it says here in this article, yall take it everywhere.
KA: Um-hum. We really do.
Ken: You deliver it. You deliver it yourselves?
KA: Um, we’ve got a driver or we deliver it ourselves, yes.
Ken: Uh-huh. What’s the, what’s the furthest you’ve taken it?
KA: Well, I’ve gone to the east coast and I’ve gone to the west coast, both of ‘em.
Ken: Right
KA: I’ve taken some to California, and some to, the first thing that I could remember, on the coast, I remember of course, I sent it to Florida all the time, but I’ve sent it, sent it to Virginia. A guy used it for a break, I don’t know what he was doing, some kind of, somehow made it, he was breaking the waves that come in off the east coast there.
Ken: OK
KA: Somehow, of course, I’m sure it didn’t last, the first storm and shit that came at it
Ken: (laugh)
KA: That’s what he told me he was doing with it.
Ken: Uh-huh, Uh-huh. So, I, what would be, if a man was just using it to fence off his ranch, just fence posts, you know
KA: Um-hum
Ken: back in the old days. What would be the competitive wood that would exist up in the west. From Colorado, Montana, I mean, is there any wood that could compete, that could have competed with cedar before the T-post and the, and
KA: Yeah, I heard about in the old days, that some of those guys up there used to use Bois d Ark, what they called Bois d Ark.
Ken: OK, right
KA: I’ve heard of that.
Ken: I know that.
KA: Uh, they used to use Mesquite posts, to a certain degree.
Ken: They’re all gnarly, they’re not gonna be good
KA: Yeah. Well, it depends on where you cut it, you know, sometimes you’d get down in those, uh washes and draws
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: But they, it’s just not available in abundance like this is.
Ken: Would you say that back, that cedar posts were used all over the west, that they, I talked to one trucker that took ‘em in the ‘40s up into Montana
KA: Um-hum
Ken: And old truck that
KA: I’ve taken some to Wyoming and
Ken: Uh-huh. So you think it’s the post that fenced the west? And he said, you know, they’d take barbed wire, it’s the wire that fenced the west.
KA: Oh, now that I don’t know. ‘cause I’ve never sent enough up there. I don’t know what anybody else is doing, but, I certainly never, not sent enough up there to fence Wyoming and Montana (laugh)
Ken: It could have been fenced a long time ago and still be there.
KA: It could have, yes sir. It could have. There’s another thing that’s going on. You reminded me talking about that. There’s another thing that’s going on, the East Texas red cedar, which isn’t now, nor has it ever been, any good for fencing. ‘Cause it’s too sappy I’m sure you probably know that
Ken: Right
KA: They’re running, over there in that area, they’re running off of the mountain heart cedar name, because a lot of people nowadays, where all this land is being sold, don’t have the foggiest what cedar is. They, some customers I’ve talked to think red cedar is Mountain heart cedar. And they are selling that stuff over there for fencing. I don’t know how long it’s gonna last. I just, I just found out that this is going on the last two or three years. What will end up is making a lot of people mad, because they’ll rot right away
Ken: Right
KA: But they’re doing it. They’re making ___ over there
Ken: Um-hum
KA: You know, the big stuff, there’s always been a market for it, they’re making lumber to use indoors.
Ken: Yes
KA: But the smaller stuff can’t be used for anything, so they, they can undercut the price of mountain heart cedar.
Ken: Right
KA: And that’s what they’ve been doing
Ken: Right
KA: You know, a lady called me just the other day, uh, was looking for some posts. If I had red cedar. You know, I asked her, are you sure you know what you’re talking about. Because she was doing it for fencing. “Yeah, I know, red cedar.” She’s got a yard over there, uh, I didn’t write her name down and I can’t remember exactly where it was at, but it is over there by Corpus Christie, somewhere in that area. But, uh, all along the coast, it’s starting to pop up, selling red cedar, ‘cause it’s real available and it’s cheap.
Ken: Cheap.
KA: Um-hum
Ken: Where is there, a fence post, what is it, six and a half, four by six and a half?
KA: Six and a half by four?
Ken: Is that, that’s your fence post, isn’t it?
KA: ___
Ken: You can show me the list.
KA: I can make you a copy of the list right now. I get $4.75 on a four inch, you’re right. But a lot of people use bigger posts than that, and, uh, the posts I ship to Mexico is generally smaller than that.
Ken: Here is a six and a half by four, $4.75
KA: Uh-huh. That’s a yard, a straight one.
Ken: Yep
KA: See, down here at the bottom is a wire, means it’s crooked
Ken: Right, right
KA: And it’s also got a six and a half by four
Ken: Right
KA: It’s cheaper.
Ken: $3.75 . Right. So, is that your, that’s your typical fence post, isn’t it.
KA: Uh, that’s one of the more common. Say, a four inch, up to about a six inch
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: Depending on how deep you go, where you’re at, and how deep you’re going
Ken: OK. Tell me about that. What’s the
KA: Well, you know, depending on how, how hard your soil is down in the sand, you need go pretty deep. You know, a lot of people will use eight foot posts over there you go two and a half, three feet in the ground
Ken: Where is that?
KA: Uh, all along the coast
Ken: All right
KA: You know, where it is sandy
Ken: OK.
KA: OK. Then you get away from there, like up here in this area, you can go eighteen inches for a line post is plenty sufficient.
Ken: Right
KA: Depending on, you know, how hard your ground is.
Ken: Right. Now, why would a, why would a person up here in this hard ground choose to build with cedar fence these days?
KA: Why would they?
Ken: Right, rather than using t-posts.
KA: Well, if they are real, real knowledgeable about it, they wouldn’t. Steel works better.
Ken: It’s easier to get in.
KA: Yeah. It’s easier, and it’s, it’s better, it’s more durable
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: What happens up here with the cedar posts, when you dig in this hard ground, what you’re creating is a cup that holds water.
Ken: Yeah
KA: It makes it rot. It rots off at the ground.
Ken: right
KA: But now, over on the coast, that’s not true at all.
Ken: Right
KA: They last longer over there than it does here. That salt like petrifies it, you know, and it lasts real well over there
Ken: OK
KA: And if they put up steel, they will be replacing it in just a few years.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: The guys tell me that build fence down there, they build it out of cedar posts then they stretch the wire up against it, and in a few years when it rots, they’ll take the wire down, roll it up, throw it away, and stretch new wire. So you don’t have to build, rebuild a whole fence. Just replace the wire.
Ken: That’s amazing that wire rots out faster than the posts, yeah, because of that salt.
KA: They say, down there, they say every now and then they have to use t posts, but when they do they like to buy those red painted posts
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: Because they don’t look so bad
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: Because the green ones all turn like rust, makes it look awful, they say, when it starts
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: rusting
Ken: Yeah
KA: But the red kind-of hides it, you know.
Ken: Uh-huh (laugh)
KA: Yeah
Ken: That makes sense. So, are a lot more, you’re selling a lot of decorative posts, then?
KA: Oh Yeah, for lumber and building materials
Ken: Yes
KA: like, in front of my house, I don’t know if you noticed that out there, but, uh, that’s real common nowadays
Ken: yeah
KA: There’s one right there
Ken: Yeah
KA: That hasn’t been treated or nothing. We just put it in the rough
Ken: That’s beautiful though
KA: Um-hum
Ken: yeah
KA: They look a lot like, as a matter-of-fact, they’re a lot prettier though, when they’re treated cedar.
Phone rings, he answers.
Ken: So, the cedar cut, you don’t know much about the cedar cutters back in the old days either?
KA: Not a lot, no. I could probably, I could probably answer a lot of your questions, but,
Ken: Did you know, did they live in tents around Leakey?
KA: Some did, to a certain degree. I don’t think a lot of ‘em did, but some did, yeah
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: some of ‘em camped in the cedar breaks when they were cutting
Ken: right, right
KA: Um-hum. Yeah.
Ken: And the whole family lived there?
KA: Several families, Boones, they never had a yard, there’s some Boones here that, he had like, Boone had ten or fifteen kids, you know
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: And there was a Loftin who did that. Pickle know, my driver, Charlie Goins, knew a lot about that. He’d seen, when he was a little kid, that’s right in the middle of that, back in the ‘40s and
Ken: Yeah, yeah
KA: But, uh, he took off. I don’t know where he went. He was here all morning. He took off right before you got here
Ken: I’ll plan on talking to him next time I come. It probably won’t be until, for a couple of months, but, yeah, that’s that’s really what I’m interested in, is back, you know, back in the old days
KA: Right
Ken: You know, uh, kind-of the whole thing. Kind of where they came from, I mean, the Boatrights came from Austin originally.
KA: Yep
Ken: So, I wonder, do you know, was Leakey always, you always had people here, I mean, didn’t they? I mean
KA: Well, yeah. Ever since it was founded, I guess. John Leakey founded it. There’s a, you know, at the courthouse, I’m not sure exactly, there’s a post on the corner of the courthouse lawn
Ken: Yeah
KA: I don’t know if you noticed that or not.
Ken: Yeah
KA: I don’t know when it was founded, but, there was, cedar, my dad used to tell me that there was not any cedar in this area right when the first settlers come here. The Indians used to set fires. Kill a lot of this stuff, they kept it burnt down until the white man come along and stopped a lot of that burning is when it
Ken: Right
KA: Is when it started taking off
Ken: How long does it take for cedar, let’s say, imagine, say you, it is to be clear cut, how long would it take before you could get good posts out of it again?
JA: There is an extreme variation in that, depending on the soil. Of course, you know, it’s just like any other plant, you know
Ken: Right
JA: it will grow faster in some. Going toward Johnson City, over there in that area, probably twenty-five years. Here, a lot longer.
Ken: I see
JA: that’s why people, you know, they get posts from here, because of the heart
Ken: Does, does the, does the heart get better when the land is poorer?
JA: I don’t think so. Of course, I’m not a botanist or nothing, but I think what it has to do, what has to do with it is that the time that it takes to grow, is what I think
Ken: Yeah
JA: Uh, all I know is that everyone likes posts from the Leakey area over any other place because they’re wasn’t sappy, was slow growing
Ken: Yeah. I live over, by the, by I live over in that area. And I cut some trees down that were, oh, what would you say that would be, about a six inch
KA: four inch
Ken: four inch. OK. A little bigger than that. They were
KA: That’s about a six inch.
Ken: yeah, about a six inch post. And I set them aside for fence, for posts, and stacked ‘em up real nice. They’re sorry, you know, five years later
KA: Seven year
Ken: Yeah, they’re no good.
KA: You can tell by looking at the end of ‘em.
Ken: Yeah
KA: Um-hum. My dad called that bull sap when I was a kid. It usually has white stripes and bark.
Ken: Uh-huh, yes it does.
KA: That’s what he called
Ken: You can tell looking at the outside of a tree
KA: To a certain degree you can
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: We grade it for heart around here too because there’s a lot towards, uh, around Fredericksburg, and those areas there, those guys are, those old German guys know cedar. They won’t buy it unless it’s good cedar.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: So they keep it separated. To a certain degree, so if they call you’ve got solid heart staves, or whatever
Ken: Well, let me ask you one more thing, uh, Ingram, I was just there yesterday
KA: Um-hum
Ken: It’s got a pretty, it had a rough reputation back in the old days
KA: Ingram?
Ken: Ingram, of the cedar choppers
KA: Yes
Ken: Uh-huh. One fella told me, he said “they’d check you for weapons when you came into the five bars in Ingram
KA: Um-ha
Ken: They’s check you for guns when you came in. If you didn’t have one, they’d give you one.
KA: I wasn’t aware of that (laugh)
All laugh
KA: I’ve lived here all my life but I wasn’t aware of that
Ken: Yeah, so I was wondering if they had that same sort of reputation here, if you’re kind of a
KA: Well, you know, they haven’t, they’ve only sold alcohol in this, in this, uh, area, just a few years. This was a dry county forever. As a matter-of-fact, it’s only been, I bet it hasn’t been more than ten years
Ken: This things blinking. I don’t know what the heck that means. OK. I think my battery is gonna run out.
KA: But, you know, ten years ago you couldn’t buy alcohol in Leakey.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: It was a dry county
Ken: Wow
KA: So, that may have, that may have stopped a lot of problems.
Ken: Yeah, I bet it did. I bet it did. I think this thing is stopping on me. Yep. Run out of power.
KA: Oh, power, you got a cord with you?
Ken: Yeah, I do have a cord, but, you know, I don’t know why, I can’t even turn it off.
End
KA001
Ken: So, a little introduction. So, I’m here talking to Ken Auld on the twenty eighth of November
KA: Yep. That’s what it is.
Ken: And you’re gonna tell me a little bit about your cedar business you started in 1946.
KA: Yeah
Ken: That’s one of the old one’s that’s still around
KA: Yeah. I wasn’t born then
Ken: Right
KA: , but my dad started it in ’46 and me and my brother, he passed away in ’88, and we took over after that. It wasn’t, it wasn’t near as prosperous, not only was it before the big boom, you know, of the ‘90s, but it was, uh, my dad wasn’t, uh, my dad, he had a little bit of a drinking problem and he wasn’t really well. Uh, as long as he had enough to feed his family and get by, that’s all
Ken: Uh-huh, uh-huh
KA: He was into, but, me and my brother were, were a little bit more ambitious
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: And, neither one of us drank. So
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: So that’s why, I think we did a lot better. And We were still in the business because of that. As long as there’s cedar we will be, as long as we’d hold out. I’m in my mid fifties now , so
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: We’ll probably , well, might not be a whole lot longer, but, fifteen, twenty years maybe.
Ken: Is your dad the only yard at the time?
KA: At the time that we took over, yes. But, now, when he was younger, no.
Ken: Tell me how many yards were there back then?
KA: Well, let’s see. Of course I don’t know that they were all going at the same time,
Ken: right
KA: but I can tell you there was Boatright, the one we been talking about, right across from - . His was, they sold firewood now, it’s right across from the Stripes
Ken: Oh really
KA: Right across from the Stripes, there’s that Beverage Barn and the restaurant. One notch north of that would be where Boatright had his cedar yard. And then, I guess , I can’t remember what his first name was, and I can’t remember it, his wife is Odell Boatright. And I can’t remember what his, Floyd
Ken: Are there any Boatrights left in, uh
KA: Leakey?
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: Yes, there are. As a matter of fact, my driver’s wife is, is Floyd and Odell’s daughter. Uh, her name, uh, Veda. Is Veda Goines now. It was Veda Boatright.
Ken: All right
KA: That’s one, and, uh, Leon Boatright is still here. Uh,
Ken: Did he cut cedar?
KA: He, he is older and his health is not real, real good now, he’s had a heart transplant and stuff, but he did when he was younger, yes.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: Yes. Um, OK, there’s, let me think, there was one right there where that Exxon is, right on the very top of that hill and I was trying to think of the name of the guy that had it. That was supposed to be a real big yard back then. That was when most of the Leakey, half of the Leakey residents, uh, hauled to him. I wish my driver hadn’t of left. He probably didn’t go far. He could tell you. He’s older than I am. He’s in his seventies. And he remembers, you know, back when he was, back
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: back when he was real young
Ken: Yeah
KA: And he remembers all those names a lot better than I dome. My brother too. He’ll be along in a minute. But it’s those two, uh, Ed Thom
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: He passed away in, uh, I think in the ‘90s. And he’s, uh, in the middle of town at the first flashing light take a right, and go out about a mile on your left to that cedar yard right there. Uh,
Ken: That’s four yards right there
KA: Yeah. Let me think. If I’ve got, if I can remember where all of ‘em. Oh, there’s a real small one not far from where Floyd had his. Uh, he was a Rohan, was his last name, uh, Barney Rohan. Lowland, act, I think. Barney was a nickname. Lowlan Rohan, of course he’s passed away too, but, he had a real small yard just what him and one hand could cut and put it out. These other yards bought from the public.
Ken: brought ‘em in.
KA: Right
Ken: How many, so, back when your dad had his yard, I guess you’d be mostly familiar with that of any of ‘em, how many, uh, folks would bring in a load a day?
KA: back when my dad did it? Oh, gosh. There were several. I would say probably, probably, say five to eight,
Ken: Um-hum
KA: a day. Now, five to eight a week.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: So, we’d do the rest. There’s not, it’s not, it’s getting less and less. Of course with this bad economy, we’ve noticed a pick-up
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: It’s about doubled in, in, what do they call it, independents, what we call independents
Ken: Right. Right.
KA: But, it, nowhere near does it, does the town depend on it like they used to.
Ken: Right. Right. Did you dad contract with the ranchers?
KA: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Ken: do it that way?
KA: Yeah. He’d use, (laugh), what do you call ‘em – foreign exchange students – to, to chop, for him. Actually back then everybody used illegals, and that’s what they were.
Ken: There weren’t too many people cutting?
KA: When my daddy was younger, yes. There was quite a few, but, really, all the time I remember, they were these hands from Mexico.
Ken: Right.
KA: You know. That’s what me and my brother used.
Ken: Yeah. That really probably picked up in the 1970s.
KA: Right
Ken: Yeah. I’m real familiar with all that
KA: Me being born in ’58. See that was just about the time I was mature
Ken: Yes, right
KA: But, uh
Ken: I’m kind-of, that’s probably kind-of the, the, almost the end of the period that I’m most interested in. I’m, I call that the heyday of the cedar chopper.
KA: Uh-huh
Ken: You know, kind-of
KA: You’re interested
Ken: 1940s, all the way through the 1950s, you know, and
KA: I know what, I know who that was, had that cedar yard right there on the, right there where Wills is now. That was Henderson. O. C. Henderson, wasn’t it.
Ken: O.C. Henderson. That is a name.
JA: Yes, it was. They had one in Camp wood. They had one there
Ken: Yeah
KA: Can you name the ones that had cedar yards right here through the years?
JA: Can I name them?
KA: Yes
JA: I might miss somebody, but, well, Floyd Boatright had one, Ed Thom,
KA: Yeah
Ken: ___. Boatright. Is this your driver you were talking about?
KA: No, that’s my brother.
Ken: Oh, OK!
JA: Hi
Ken: I’m Ken Roberts.
JA: Jan Auld
Ken: Nice to meet you, Jan. I’m the guy that’s kind-of doing a history of the cedar business in the Hill Country.
KA: Where’d ___ go? He could tell us a lot more about that old stuff because he was at least twenty years older than we are.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: So
Ken: Yeah, you know, this is not going to be my last trip here. So,
KA: Um-hum
Ken: Once the cedar, you’re the first guy I, well, I do know Doug , you know Myers cedar yard there in Lampasas. That’s pretty close to me, so I do know Doug Lavender. He’s, he’s been in business for a while, but, uh, how’s it work now? Each guy still contract with, with a rancher?
KA: Yeah
Ken: And do it that way?
KA: If you can find a good place,
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: We’ll jump all over it.
Ken: You’d look at the cedar and say, do they usually want to clear cut it, or do you all just take out the posts?
KA: We just do what the rancher wants. Whether he wants it clear cut, or whether he wants money or whatever he wants
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: As long as we can, can make a deal, as long as it’s profitable, for us, we’ll make a deal
Ken: So, let’s say I had a shaggy old bunch of ranch land that had a, a few good posts, but I really want it for grazing. That’s gonna cost me some money, isn’t it?
KA: Probablay. If it, you know, if it’s all old growth, and good, it probably isn’t
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: But if it’s, if it’s less – I’ll have to look at it
Ken: Yeah
KA: And I could tell you about what I could do.
Ken: Do you ever come across any good old growth brakes any more? Are there still some out there?
KA: Yeah, there’s still some. I know where some are now, They’re, it’s just like they’ve always been, they’ve always been a little hard to get a hold of.
Ken: Yeah
KA: Usually, that’s why they’re there to start with, you know. But, yeah.
Ken: Because people don’t want em cut?
KA: Because they want it cut right
Ken: Uh-huh. I saw one, I mean, are you talking, trees twenty foot tall?
KA: Yeah, but the height is not really that important.
Ken: No?
JA: Not for the stake
Ken: Yeah
JA: No, when I have stuff like that out on the Edwards Plateau that way out west, you know, it comes out of the ground, it looks like that.
Ken: Yeah
JA: It’s just brush and that’s all it’s ever gonna be. No matter how big it gets.
Ken: Right. That’s not gonna be any good for posts, is it. You could cut stays from it, I guess, but that, was that even worth it?
KA: usually in this country, I think it’s pretty much true of any country all the Hill Country, if you look at the sides of these hills, and go on the North side, you’ll nearly always find the best cedar.
Ken: Oh.
KA: Grows better on the north end.
JA: Down in the valleys on the north side
Ken: Uh-huh, uh-huh Ok. So, if you get a straight, you cut it into several posts, a big long, twenty, thirty foot
KA: Um-hum. That works and you also find stuff that didn’t grow over where the main trunk of the post went, would be over seven, eight foot tall.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: Now, those are good cedar too.
Ken: I just saw a truck coming in from Camp Wood and there was a man driving this flatbed and he had cut some thick cedar, but he was taking it to the mill. Why would he cut it short?
KA: They grind it up over here
JA: Probably goes to the sawmill, then they take the oil out of the sawdust to make soaps and perfumes and
Ken: Yes
KA: There’s two reasons why they cut it like that. First of all, it might not of ever made any more than that anyway.
Ken: So it might have been just a short piece
KA: And the second thing is, a lot of ‘em now a days, take, there’s a, there’s an amount of skill it takes to cut posts. It’s just like any other job. You’ve got to know a little bit about what you’re doing
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: And a lot of people do not. So they’ll just chop it up into wood and haul it to the mill because that doesn’t require any skill.
Ken: OK
KA: Just chop it u p and they get paid by weight.
Ken: OK. And they gotta get paid a whole lot less than you would
KA: Oh, yeah. They do. They do, but them not knowing how to cut it. And it requires a little more labor too. See if you go out and cut a little post, but first you’ve got to come back here and grade it off.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: And we will pay you for it. Over there, you pull up. They take a tractor and push it off and pay you for the weight and then you’re done.
Ken: Does it matter that they can sell little bitty stuff, or
KA: Over there it does. Here it doesn’t. They won’t buy it over there.
Ken: They won’t buy it because they’re looking for that heart wood, is that right?
KA: Right.
Ken: This is good, heart wood cedar. I’m going – you mean they’re gonna grind that stuff up, that, what a shame!
KA: ‘cause that’s where the oil is. And if it’s not, there’s no oil in the sap part.
Ken: I’ve got ya. What do you figure they get for a load of
KA: On a one ton?
Ken: It’s a one ton, or, yeah, one ton, one and a half.
KA: They probably average about one hundred fifty dollars. They’re getting ‘em roughly about fifty dollars a ton, and about three tons.
Ken: Uh-huh.
JA: ____
KA: A hundred fifty, two hundred
Ken: Uh-huh.
KA: I don’t know if the come across that hill, though Jan with that
JA: naw, but they’re cutting ___
KA: Alright
Ken: Because this one here was coming across
KA: Across the hill
Ken: Across 337, yeah
KA: Three to four tons, he figured.
Ken: Uh-huh. Hum.
KA: So a big old rounded load like that, hundred fifty, two hundred bucks is not that much here, it would pay probably three or four times that.
Ken: Yeah, yeah. OK. Plus the gas Camp Wood has got to be pretty substantial, over that hill.
KA: Um-hum
KA: And a lot of times these guys, if they’re cutting posts in a place like that, they’ll agree with the rancher to clear the wood off there, when they’re not making anything off it, just so they can get the posts.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: It helps the rancher and
Ken: Right. What’s the biggest percentage you would pay a rancher if he had virgin cedar?
KA: And I didn’t do any labor? Just took what I wanted?
Ken: Yeah
KA: Twenty percent.
Ken: OK
KA: Of the price -- of the choppers price that I would furnish
Ken: Right. Here and way back then, ten would be pretty typical?
KA: Yeah. Back then. But it’s now days everything’s higher, you know
Ken: Yeah
KA: Just like everything else. We’re able to go up with it.
Ken: So, where did you, it says here in this article, yall take it everywhere.
KA: Um-hum. We really do.
Ken: You deliver it. You deliver it yourselves?
KA: Um, we’ve got a driver or we deliver it ourselves, yes.
Ken: Uh-huh. What’s the, what’s the furthest you’ve taken it?
KA: Well, I’ve gone to the east coast and I’ve gone to the west coast, both of ‘em.
Ken: Right
KA: I’ve taken some to California, and some to, the first thing that I could remember, on the coast, I remember of course, I sent it to Florida all the time, but I’ve sent it, sent it to Virginia. A guy used it for a break, I don’t know what he was doing, some kind of, somehow made it, he was breaking the waves that come in off the east coast there.
Ken: OK
KA: Somehow, of course, I’m sure it didn’t last, the first storm and shit that came at it
Ken: (laugh)
KA: That’s what he told me he was doing with it.
Ken: Uh-huh, Uh-huh. So, I, what would be, if a man was just using it to fence off his ranch, just fence posts, you know
KA: Um-hum
Ken: back in the old days. What would be the competitive wood that would exist up in the west. From Colorado, Montana, I mean, is there any wood that could compete, that could have competed with cedar before the T-post and the, and
KA: Yeah, I heard about in the old days, that some of those guys up there used to use Bois d Ark, what they called Bois d Ark.
Ken: OK, right
KA: I’ve heard of that.
Ken: I know that.
KA: Uh, they used to use Mesquite posts, to a certain degree.
Ken: They’re all gnarly, they’re not gonna be good
KA: Yeah. Well, it depends on where you cut it, you know, sometimes you’d get down in those, uh washes and draws
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: But they, it’s just not available in abundance like this is.
Ken: Would you say that back, that cedar posts were used all over the west, that they, I talked to one trucker that took ‘em in the ‘40s up into Montana
KA: Um-hum
Ken: And old truck that
KA: I’ve taken some to Wyoming and
Ken: Uh-huh. So you think it’s the post that fenced the west? And he said, you know, they’d take barbed wire, it’s the wire that fenced the west.
KA: Oh, now that I don’t know. ‘cause I’ve never sent enough up there. I don’t know what anybody else is doing, but, I certainly never, not sent enough up there to fence Wyoming and Montana (laugh)
Ken: It could have been fenced a long time ago and still be there.
KA: It could have, yes sir. It could have. There’s another thing that’s going on. You reminded me talking about that. There’s another thing that’s going on, the East Texas red cedar, which isn’t now, nor has it ever been, any good for fencing. ‘Cause it’s too sappy I’m sure you probably know that
Ken: Right
KA: They’re running, over there in that area, they’re running off of the mountain heart cedar name, because a lot of people nowadays, where all this land is being sold, don’t have the foggiest what cedar is. They, some customers I’ve talked to think red cedar is Mountain heart cedar. And they are selling that stuff over there for fencing. I don’t know how long it’s gonna last. I just, I just found out that this is going on the last two or three years. What will end up is making a lot of people mad, because they’ll rot right away
Ken: Right
KA: But they’re doing it. They’re making ___ over there
Ken: Um-hum
KA: You know, the big stuff, there’s always been a market for it, they’re making lumber to use indoors.
Ken: Yes
KA: But the smaller stuff can’t be used for anything, so they, they can undercut the price of mountain heart cedar.
Ken: Right
KA: And that’s what they’ve been doing
Ken: Right
KA: You know, a lady called me just the other day, uh, was looking for some posts. If I had red cedar. You know, I asked her, are you sure you know what you’re talking about. Because she was doing it for fencing. “Yeah, I know, red cedar.” She’s got a yard over there, uh, I didn’t write her name down and I can’t remember exactly where it was at, but it is over there by Corpus Christie, somewhere in that area. But, uh, all along the coast, it’s starting to pop up, selling red cedar, ‘cause it’s real available and it’s cheap.
Ken: Cheap.
KA: Um-hum
Ken: Where is there, a fence post, what is it, six and a half, four by six and a half?
KA: Six and a half by four?
Ken: Is that, that’s your fence post, isn’t it?
KA: ___
Ken: You can show me the list.
KA: I can make you a copy of the list right now. I get $4.75 on a four inch, you’re right. But a lot of people use bigger posts than that, and, uh, the posts I ship to Mexico is generally smaller than that.
Ken: Here is a six and a half by four, $4.75
KA: Uh-huh. That’s a yard, a straight one.
Ken: Yep
KA: See, down here at the bottom is a wire, means it’s crooked
Ken: Right, right
KA: And it’s also got a six and a half by four
Ken: Right
KA: It’s cheaper.
Ken: $3.75 . Right. So, is that your, that’s your typical fence post, isn’t it.
KA: Uh, that’s one of the more common. Say, a four inch, up to about a six inch
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: Depending on how deep you go, where you’re at, and how deep you’re going
Ken: OK. Tell me about that. What’s the
KA: Well, you know, depending on how, how hard your soil is down in the sand, you need go pretty deep. You know, a lot of people will use eight foot posts over there you go two and a half, three feet in the ground
Ken: Where is that?
KA: Uh, all along the coast
Ken: All right
KA: You know, where it is sandy
Ken: OK.
KA: OK. Then you get away from there, like up here in this area, you can go eighteen inches for a line post is plenty sufficient.
Ken: Right
KA: Depending on, you know, how hard your ground is.
Ken: Right. Now, why would a, why would a person up here in this hard ground choose to build with cedar fence these days?
KA: Why would they?
Ken: Right, rather than using t-posts.
KA: Well, if they are real, real knowledgeable about it, they wouldn’t. Steel works better.
Ken: It’s easier to get in.
KA: Yeah. It’s easier, and it’s, it’s better, it’s more durable
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: What happens up here with the cedar posts, when you dig in this hard ground, what you’re creating is a cup that holds water.
Ken: Yeah
KA: It makes it rot. It rots off at the ground.
Ken: right
KA: But now, over on the coast, that’s not true at all.
Ken: Right
KA: They last longer over there than it does here. That salt like petrifies it, you know, and it lasts real well over there
Ken: OK
KA: And if they put up steel, they will be replacing it in just a few years.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: The guys tell me that build fence down there, they build it out of cedar posts then they stretch the wire up against it, and in a few years when it rots, they’ll take the wire down, roll it up, throw it away, and stretch new wire. So you don’t have to build, rebuild a whole fence. Just replace the wire.
Ken: That’s amazing that wire rots out faster than the posts, yeah, because of that salt.
KA: They say, down there, they say every now and then they have to use t posts, but when they do they like to buy those red painted posts
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: Because they don’t look so bad
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: Because the green ones all turn like rust, makes it look awful, they say, when it starts
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: rusting
Ken: Yeah
KA: But the red kind-of hides it, you know.
Ken: Uh-huh (laugh)
KA: Yeah
Ken: That makes sense. So, are a lot more, you’re selling a lot of decorative posts, then?
KA: Oh Yeah, for lumber and building materials
Ken: Yes
KA: like, in front of my house, I don’t know if you noticed that out there, but, uh, that’s real common nowadays
Ken: yeah
KA: There’s one right there
Ken: Yeah
KA: That hasn’t been treated or nothing. We just put it in the rough
Ken: That’s beautiful though
KA: Um-hum
Ken: yeah
KA: They look a lot like, as a matter-of-fact, they’re a lot prettier though, when they’re treated cedar.
Phone rings, he answers.
Ken: So, the cedar cut, you don’t know much about the cedar cutters back in the old days either?
KA: Not a lot, no. I could probably, I could probably answer a lot of your questions, but,
Ken: Did you know, did they live in tents around Leakey?
KA: Some did, to a certain degree. I don’t think a lot of ‘em did, but some did, yeah
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: some of ‘em camped in the cedar breaks when they were cutting
Ken: right, right
KA: Um-hum. Yeah.
Ken: And the whole family lived there?
KA: Several families, Boones, they never had a yard, there’s some Boones here that, he had like, Boone had ten or fifteen kids, you know
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: And there was a Loftin who did that. Pickle know, my driver, Charlie Goins, knew a lot about that. He’d seen, when he was a little kid, that’s right in the middle of that, back in the ‘40s and
Ken: Yeah, yeah
KA: But, uh, he took off. I don’t know where he went. He was here all morning. He took off right before you got here
Ken: I’ll plan on talking to him next time I come. It probably won’t be until, for a couple of months, but, yeah, that’s that’s really what I’m interested in, is back, you know, back in the old days
KA: Right
Ken: You know, uh, kind-of the whole thing. Kind of where they came from, I mean, the Boatrights came from Austin originally.
KA: Yep
Ken: So, I wonder, do you know, was Leakey always, you always had people here, I mean, didn’t they? I mean
KA: Well, yeah. Ever since it was founded, I guess. John Leakey founded it. There’s a, you know, at the courthouse, I’m not sure exactly, there’s a post on the corner of the courthouse lawn
Ken: Yeah
KA: I don’t know if you noticed that or not.
Ken: Yeah
KA: I don’t know when it was founded, but, there was, cedar, my dad used to tell me that there was not any cedar in this area right when the first settlers come here. The Indians used to set fires. Kill a lot of this stuff, they kept it burnt down until the white man come along and stopped a lot of that burning is when it
Ken: Right
KA: Is when it started taking off
Ken: How long does it take for cedar, let’s say, imagine, say you, it is to be clear cut, how long would it take before you could get good posts out of it again?
JA: There is an extreme variation in that, depending on the soil. Of course, you know, it’s just like any other plant, you know
Ken: Right
JA: it will grow faster in some. Going toward Johnson City, over there in that area, probably twenty-five years. Here, a lot longer.
Ken: I see
JA: that’s why people, you know, they get posts from here, because of the heart
Ken: Does, does the, does the heart get better when the land is poorer?
JA: I don’t think so. Of course, I’m not a botanist or nothing, but I think what it has to do, what has to do with it is that the time that it takes to grow, is what I think
Ken: Yeah
JA: Uh, all I know is that everyone likes posts from the Leakey area over any other place because they’re wasn’t sappy, was slow growing
Ken: Yeah. I live over, by the, by I live over in that area. And I cut some trees down that were, oh, what would you say that would be, about a six inch
KA: four inch
Ken: four inch. OK. A little bigger than that. They were
KA: That’s about a six inch.
Ken: yeah, about a six inch post. And I set them aside for fence, for posts, and stacked ‘em up real nice. They’re sorry, you know, five years later
KA: Seven year
Ken: Yeah, they’re no good.
KA: You can tell by looking at the end of ‘em.
Ken: Yeah
KA: Um-hum. My dad called that bull sap when I was a kid. It usually has white stripes and bark.
Ken: Uh-huh, yes it does.
KA: That’s what he called
Ken: You can tell looking at the outside of a tree
KA: To a certain degree you can
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: We grade it for heart around here too because there’s a lot towards, uh, around Fredericksburg, and those areas there, those guys are, those old German guys know cedar. They won’t buy it unless it’s good cedar.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: So they keep it separated. To a certain degree, so if they call you’ve got solid heart staves, or whatever
Ken: Well, let me ask you one more thing, uh, Ingram, I was just there yesterday
KA: Um-hum
Ken: It’s got a pretty, it had a rough reputation back in the old days
KA: Ingram?
Ken: Ingram, of the cedar choppers
KA: Yes
Ken: Uh-huh. One fella told me, he said “they’d check you for weapons when you came into the five bars in Ingram
KA: Um-ha
Ken: They’s check you for guns when you came in. If you didn’t have one, they’d give you one.
KA: I wasn’t aware of that (laugh)
All laugh
KA: I’ve lived here all my life but I wasn’t aware of that
Ken: Yeah, so I was wondering if they had that same sort of reputation here, if you’re kind of a
KA: Well, you know, they haven’t, they’ve only sold alcohol in this, in this, uh, area, just a few years. This was a dry county forever. As a matter-of-fact, it’s only been, I bet it hasn’t been more than ten years
Ken: This things blinking. I don’t know what the heck that means. OK. I think my battery is gonna run out.
KA: But, you know, ten years ago you couldn’t buy alcohol in Leakey.
Ken: Uh-huh
KA: It was a dry county
Ken: Wow
KA: So, that may have, that may have stopped a lot of problems.
Ken: Yeah, I bet it did. I bet it did. I think this thing is stopping on me. Yep. Run out of power.
KA: Oh, power, you got a cord with you?
Ken: Yeah, I do have a cord, but, you know, I don’t know why, I can’t even turn it off.
End
